Dave Ramsey is one of the favorite personal finance gurus among personal finance bloggers. However, I often hear many bloggers criticize his religious message intertwined through his debt reduction advice. But, I think that Dave Ramsey's holistic approach to debt reduction is the only way to truly resolve peoples' debt problems.
Dave Ramsey often states that personal finance is 80 percent behavior and 20 percent knowledge. This is why a holistic approach to debt reduction is a must.
Dave Ramsey never states that religion will solve debt problems. Only accurate and straight to the point personal finance advice will answer peoples' questions for how to get out of debt.
However, behind most debt problems are other life problems. People often get into debt because of a lack of self discipline, out of control materialism, denial, and pride. Other common causes include alcohol and drug addiction, gambling addiction and other out of control human vices.
Personal finance knowledge will not solve these problems. Personal finance advice will give them a plan to get out of debt, but a true change in lifestyle requires a more holistic answer. And one facet of this holistic solution can involve religion.
Religion has played an important role in human life from its beginnings. There seems to be an evolutionary belief in God and religion. From the ancient Greeks to Buddhists to Hindus to Vikings to Zulus to modern Americans all included religion in their lives.
Other bloggers criticize Dave Ramsey for his Christian message. But, this is natural for Dave Ramsey - he is a Christian. If you listen to Dave Ramsey often you will know that his Christian message is discussed with fellow Christians. He does not preach Christianity to non-Christians. However, he does promote religion for all people.
But, Ramsey does not just preach religion. His holistic message is much broader. It includes an emphasis on healthy relationships, psychology, sociology, and other counseling.
So, I think that Dave Ramsey should discuss religion as a component of his debt reduction advice. I would love to hear your thoughts. Please share them in the comments below.
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I have been critical of Dave and I am one that does not think that a debt advisor should wrap religion and politics into the message of overcoming debt. Why? It’s just that both religion and politics can be exclusionary and don’t serve the greater goal of providing compassionate care to every person in trouble.
I really hate to have a different POV on this but I think if Dave wanted to be truly holistic that he would not utter words of exclusion at a time of pain.
I do fully agree that money problems are not about the money, they are about the underlying issues and most times, the debt is just the symptom.
This is a leading reason why I often wince at the advice Dave gives. I would much rather move the debt out of the way and focus on correcting the underlying issue than placed the person in a position of bondage with debt.
For those that feel that the emotional success of dissolving debt using Dave’s approach, I salute you. But Ramsey fans should not take offense when people don’t want to take that path. In the end, the issue is not what is best for you and I, but what is best for the person in trouble.
Steve
@GetOutOfDebtGuy
Steve,
I agree that debt counselors should not be exclusionary, but I don’t believe that Dave’s approach to using a Christian message as part of his debt counseling message is exclusionary.
Dave uses a Christian message with his Christian listeners, not all of his listeners. If he finds out that someone is a Christian, he talks to them in a language that they understand. This is the heart of good communication.
Now, Dave does believe that all people should embrace religion. I know that this can offend non-believers, but it is an important part of his message. Religion can be a powerful tool to help people straighten out their lives.
For some people the religion message will not resonate, and in fact I agree that it might repulse some. But, to those individuals, there are plenty of debt counselors that they can turn to. I do not believe that a good debt counselor needs to be all things to all people.
I’m a huge fan of Dave. I’ve had platinum access twice when he came to Salt Lake City so I got to meet him before the show each time. I think the thing that really resonated with me about Dave was his religious approach to money.
During his first trip to SLC, someone asked why there were no certified counselors in Utah. Dave said it was basically up to us to take the training and become certified. I was seriously ready to leave my career as a computer programmer and become a financial counselor. Then I learned on his site that you have to be an Evangelical or Catholic Christian to be “Dave certified” and receive referrals from his website. I’m LDS (Mormon) so I called and asked their office about it and all I got was “no exceptions, this is Dave’s rule!”
Honestly I was pretty frustrated with that. I could take the course still for a discounted price, but I couldn’t advertise as “Dave certified” or receive referrals from his website.
This fall when Dave came out again I asked him about it. He said that because most of his followers are Evangelical or Catholic Christian they come to expect his certified counselors to be the same. I was pacified with that answer and I can understand where he is coming from. But he also mentioned that some Mormons from Utah had recently taken his course – so I’m not sure what the deal was with that.
Really, the stuff he teaches and scriptures he uses fall right in line with teachings in our church – other than we have no paid ministry, so ministers are not getting paid and we don’t advocate “ministers ought to be extremely wealthy” as I’ve heard one of his employees say a few times.
So where does the exclusion stop? Sexual orientation, Hindu, Muslim, non-republicans? I’ve actually had Christian groups tell me that they would not refer people to me if I helped gays. Really! I told them in that case they should not refer any more people to me.
Dave is the perfect money coach for his target audience, Christians that are politically conservative. My point, the world is bigger and more diverse.
One lesson that I’ve learned is the Dave fans can get pretty fanatical about their passion for Dave. All I’m saying is that for some he is great, for others his message is exclusionary.
Steve
@GetOutOfDebtGuy
Oooooh, getting a little spicy in here!
I will say what I always say when I stumble upon these topics. The Christian bible reeks of financial wisdom, so we would be foolish not to leverage it, just as we ought to leverage financial wisdom from any source — if we choose to do anything contrary then we show our own ignorance.
Per Dave and his “rules”… so be it. It is his program and so he can do as he pleases. I for one find it refreshing when someone takes a stand for things they believe in.
Lastly, concerning Christian’s – of which I consider myself one indeed – I see a lack of inward examination. Christ died for me while I was yet a sinner. Who am I to judge someone based on any sin of their own? I have no such power. My duty is to love the person in spite of their sin, just as Christ loved me in spite of mine. That said… we do not have to and SHOULD NOT love the sin itself, or accept is as “okay”. Sin is sin, but love has defeated sin, and our duty is to sacrificially love the sinner regardless of their sin.
Steve,
I think you are absolutely correct. For some, I am sure his religious message does turn people off. But some people want to talk to a religious person. That is why our big, diverse world is so great.
If you want to find a Christian debt counselor you can find one. If you want a debt counselor who does not talk about religion, there are plenty of those to choose from too.
If I told you that I lost a loved one and wanted to talk to my pastor about it, I don’t think that anyone would think twice. Some people want to talk to their pastors about money problems too. I don’t see anything wrong with this. It seems natural.
Dustin,
When I first read your message, I was kind of shocked that Dave Ramsey would not allow a Mormon to be certified by his organization. I am not one to exclude people based on religion. This comment in response has not been the easiest for me to write.
While I do not like the idea of someone being excluded from being associated with Dave Ramsey’s counseling, I can understand why Dave Ramsey would do so. Dave Ramsey’s Counseling Service has steered his work to Evangelical and Catholic churches. I can see why he would not want to create confusion with his clients. Many expect to be counseled by these types of Christian counselors.
Matt,
I think that you expressed my thoughts much better than I did. These issues are tough to talk about.
As a Christian myself, I cannot compartmentalize & separate my faith from my finances. The two go hand-n-hand. I assume Ramsey feels the same way.
As far as others I counsel, I do give them sound advice that anyone can heed (Christian or non) and I hope that through my help, a door might be open to talk about my relationship with Jesus.
@Matt – great summation! I’m a big time sinner, but Jesus is a bigger Savior!!
I’ve heard the objections to Dave Ramsey’s program before – that he’s exclusionary and a bad because he won’t allow non-Christians to be certified, etc. To me those objections just don’t hold water.
Dave Ramsey has a specific point of view in the course that he is teaching. He teaches specific things when it comes to finances, and he relates much of what he’s teaching to biblical principles. Since he comes from an evangelical Christian point of view, and much of his program includes bible verses, faith topics, etc it only makes sense that he would want others who are teaching his program to believe in the same principles.
As soon as he starts endorsing those who don’t believe in everything he’s teaching – his program becomes something else, it becomes that person’s hybrid Dave Ramsey program. That’s not what it was meant to be. It’s Dave Ramsey’s program, and he can teach it the way he wants, and endorse whoever he wants. He has his program’s integrity to uphold, and he wants to make sure it is taught how it was meant to be taught.
At the same time I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a Ramsey class or seminar excluding someone from attending because they weren’t a Christian, they were gay, or whatever. That’s as it should be I think. I know for a fact that several non-Christians attended the financial peace university class that I helped teach at our church – which is awesome!
Will his Christian worldview turn some people off to Dave Ramsey’s program? Sure. Does that mean he should stop teaching what he’s teaching? I don’t think so. There are plenty of non-Christian debt management programs out there for those people. Dave’s program has worked wonders for thousands of people, but it isn’t the only way to get out of debt. For me, however, I appreciate having something that doesn’t mind talking about faith, and doesn’t hide behind a wall of political correctness.
When it comes to helping people with debt, I’m curious, what would Jesus do? Would he adopt the same restrictions and limitations as Dave does?
I think you’re bringing in a bit of a straw man argument here. Dave helps everyone who comes to him for help. No exclusions. Talking about one’s faith does not equal exclusion or discrimination. He is happy to help anyone and everyone.
The only exclusion he does is when certifying his counselors – because his program teaches certain things, and he wants to make sure that the integrity of his program is maintained. If that turns people off, that’s fine – I don’t think that Ramsey has to be the debt counselor for every person in every situation. If his faith scares people off, there are plenty of non-Christian debt counselors out there who will be happy to help.
Steve-
With all due respect, I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Dave IS helping non-Christian’s with debt. Anyone can listen to Dave’s message on the radio for free and benefit. He’s not being exclusionary.
Dave is, however, excluding non-Evangelicals/Catholic business men and women from using his system as the system and the Evangelical/Catholic faith are entwined. He’s merely protecting his brand and his future constituents. And as a capitalist myself, I don’t find any fault in this and would expect nothing less.
NOTE: I’m not a Ramsey apologist. He does great work in the PF arena, but we differ vastly in investing strategies. I wish he’d reconsider his outlook in this area.
Matthew,
I agree that it is about brand protection and I understand that. And like you, I am fine with that POV. I just don’t think that should be masked by other things.
I understand the POV that people are making here, I’ve heard them many times before. I’m not asking anyone to change their allegiance to Dave. But I don’t have to think it is fair or right and I’ve expressed that opinion.
Out.
Steve
Steve,
You made made the following comment above,
“When it comes to helping people with debt, I’m curious, what would Jesus do? Would he adopt the same restrictions and limitations as Dave does?”
I am not really sure what you point is here. Do you believe that Dave should allow non-Christian counselors? Wouldn’t this compromise his Christian debt counseling program? Like it or not, his counseling program is a Christian program. Non-Christians are certainly not excluded from getting debt help.
You ask what would Jesus do. I wouldn’t want to presume knowing what he would do. However, I am pretty sure that Jesus would not want non-Christians to be allowed to become pastors and priests of the Church. Christ’s apostles were all Christians.
@Steve: Great question!! What would Jesus do?
I’m glad that Jesus did not leave us to wonder about these matters… He has given us His Word that details the accounts of exactly what He would do, and exactly what He did.
Helping the most abominable wretch and helping the sweet old lady across the street and helping everyone in between regardless of anything is EXACTLY why God came to earth as the incarnate Jesus… the Christ… the fulfillment of biblical prophesy!
I am chief of sinners and I weep that I am unable to represent Christ the way He deserves to be represented. He died for me, and He lives for me… and for you all.
He came to this earth to reveal these charitable truths to us, and to teach us how to live… and He did not exclude teaching on this matter of finances, nor did he exclude who He taught to… what a blessing! That said… He did commit to faithful likeminded men to carry His message on intact, and in truth — the 12 disciples. He did not commit the continued ministry of his truths to just anyone, and neither should any of us.
So again… what would Jesus do? Rather, what DID Jesus do?
Jesus taught us that we need to consult Him for wisdom in all matters, even financial matters. He taught us that we need to esteem others higher than ourselves. He taught us that we ought to put the needs of others before our own.
Dave’s goal is to stay focused on teaching the same principles, and so He needs like minded people to help him shoulder that burden. If the teachers are not like minded, then the end result is not the same – I think we can all understand and draw this conclusion.
I’ll say again – isn’t it refreshing to see someone stand for something they believe in… especially in this day & age? I for one absolutely LOVE IT!
Thanks for your great question Steve!
Wow interesting discussion here. Mark, you ought to add a plugin to email new comments as it would be easier for me to keep up
I should clarify and emphasize that I totally respect Dave for having values and sticking with them. My concern was why would he not feel a Mormon is Christian enough. I’ve seen FPU taught in LDS meeting houses. That is my biggest issue. I know having served a 2 year mission that there is a lot of anti-mormon literature out there claiming we are some kind of cult and don’t believe in Christ. We have the nickname “Mormon” because we believe in another testament of Jesus Christ – the Book of Momon. I just wish I could invite Dave to visit lds.org and learn a little more about us. This site is also a good start: http://www.youtube.com/mormonmessages
BTW, I should add the Book of Mormon also has a few nuggets of financial wisdom from God. One of my favorites:
But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
(Jacob 2:18-19)
Dustin –
You asked “My concern was why would he not feel a Mormon is Christian enough.”.
Well, there is no such thing as “christian enough”. You either follow Christ and follow him exclusively and believe what he says about himself in the bible, or you are not a Christ follower (aka Christian).
A christian believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that he is God AND he is the Son of God, that he has always existed and will always exist. That his death on the cross, burial and resurrection has redeemed us from sin (his gospel). Christ states that the gates of hell will not prevail against his gospel. In other words, writings that contradict the Word of God in any way are not biblical, that nothing has ever been lost nor will it ever be lost.
So many in our society today like to claim they are a christian, when in fact, they are not (I sometimes think it’s more of a societal pressure than an actual life belief). A christian believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God. That no man can come to the father (God) but through belief in the son (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6). He has existed for all eternity as one God in 3 persons and he will exist for the rest of eternity, no one came before him, no one will come after him. No other person or entity can ever, or ever will be “a god”.
The very last verses of the bible speak clearly about religions that add to or take away from the bible:
Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
The Bible is the Word of God. There is no other book or writing on earth that is the Word of God. The bible clearly says that. The Holy Spirit says to “search the scriptures” for wisdom and truth, not other writings.
I’m not on here to degrade your beliefs or to tell you you are wrong in what you believe. I’m here to explain to you the defining factor that Dave Ramsey uses for certifying ELP’s & financial counselors. Dave Ramsey expects his certified people to believe in the bible and no other writings that contradict the bible.
For example, I read things besides the bible. I find good information in other non-fiction writings. However, if I read something that is contrary to the Word of God (found only in the bible), than I will no longer read that writing. When something is questionable, I search the scriptures (God’s bible) for confirmation or condemnation. The bible is my compass from which all other things are measured.
@ Freedom & Happiness
I personally feel that it is not up to me to determine if someone else is not a Christian. That is between them and God. Please don’t read this as an attack upon you. I am just sharing my point of view and hold no animosity towards you or anyone.
If your interpretation of Ramsey’s “Defining Factor” is correct then I don’t think that he would allow Catholics either. After all, protestant religions came about because protestants believed that the Catholic church was wrong and corrupted.
It appears to have more to do with how religions are perceived by the majority. The majority accepts Evangelicals and Catholics as Christians without question due to the history associated with them. The Mormons are not well understood and not as accepted. Dave being an Evangelical probably does does not accept Mormons as Christians or at least believes that too many of his followers would not accept them.
I simply don’t agree with your interpretation and understanding of the Bible.
And that brings up a big point. Many people and evangelical sects interpret the bible differently. That is why we have so many differnt sects. They could not agree. So I don’t think it appropriate to disqualify Mormons as Christains because they don’t interpret the Bible the same way that you do.
Mormons profess a belief in Christ as the Son of God and the one and only savior. They consider themselves covenant disciples of Christ and and when they fail to live up to that discipleship (as we all do) they know that Christ has redeemed them. Everything else is just details that men can’t agree on. Men can hold their councils and make their creeds based on their interpretations of the Bible… but in my opinion … that does not give them authority in the eyes of God to determine who is Christian and who is not.
Mormons are Christians… Those claiming they are not are just plain ignorant… Seriously, how would you like someone telling you are not Christian. Just saying someone is not Christian, when they say they are, is un-Christian.
BTW-Dave Ramsey is spot on when it comes to money matters…
Dave Ramsey should not only accept Mormons into his efforts, he should earnestly seek them out. Books have been written about the LDS work ethic and financial prowess. Look at business men like Mitt Romney, also the founders of Marriott, Jetblue, HP, and many others.
The bottom line is that the LDS faith and culture breeds outstanding Christian individuals who excel in all walks of life. I must confess, as much as I respect Ramsey for his contributions, his anti-Mormon angle here is upsetting and very disturbing.