BTW-Dave Ramsey is spot on when it comes to money matters…

I personally feel that it is not up to me to determine if someone else is not a Christian. That is between them and God. Please don’t read this as an attack upon you. I am just sharing my point of view and hold no animosity towards you or anyone.

If your interpretation of Ramsey’s “Defining Factor” is correct then I don’t think that he would allow Catholics either. After all, protestant religions came about because protestants believed that the Catholic church was wrong and corrupted.

It appears to have more to do with how religions are perceived by the majority. The majority accepts Evangelicals and Catholics as Christians without question due to the history associated with them. The Mormons are not well understood and not as accepted. Dave being an Evangelical probably does does not accept Mormons as Christians or at least believes that too many of his followers would not accept them.

I simply don’t agree with your interpretation and understanding of the Bible.
And that brings up a big point. Many people and evangelical sects interpret the bible differently. That is why we have so many differnt sects. They could not agree. So I don’t think it appropriate to disqualify Mormons as Christains because they don’t interpret the Bible the same way that you do.
Mormons profess a belief in Christ as the Son of God and the one and only savior. They consider themselves covenant disciples of Christ and and when they fail to live up to that discipleship (as we all do) they know that Christ has redeemed them. Everything else is just details that men can’t agree on. Men can hold their councils and make their creeds based on their interpretations of the Bible… but in my opinion … that does not give them authority in the eyes of God to determine who is Christian and who is not.

You asked “My concern was why would he not feel a Mormon is Christian enough.”.

Well, there is no such thing as “christian enough”. You either follow Christ and follow him exclusively and believe what he says about himself in the bible, or you are not a Christ follower (aka Christian).

A christian believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that he is God AND he is the Son of God, that he has always existed and will always exist. That his death on the cross, burial and resurrection has redeemed us from sin (his gospel). Christ states that the gates of hell will not prevail against his gospel. In other words, writings that contradict the Word of God in any way are not biblical, that nothing has ever been lost nor will it ever be lost.

So many in our society today like to claim they are a christian, when in fact, they are not (I sometimes think it’s more of a societal pressure than an actual life belief). A christian believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God. That no man can come to the father (God) but through belief in the son (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6). He has existed for all eternity as one God in 3 persons and he will exist for the rest of eternity, no one came before him, no one will come after him. No other person or entity can ever, or ever will be “a god”.

The very last verses of the bible speak clearly about religions that add to or take away from the bible:

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The Bible is the Word of God. There is no other book or writing on earth that is the Word of God. The bible clearly says that. The Holy Spirit says to “search the scriptures” for wisdom and truth, not other writings.

I’m not on here to degrade your beliefs or to tell you you are wrong in what you believe. I’m here to explain to you the defining factor that Dave Ramsey uses for certifying ELP’s & financial counselors. Dave Ramsey expects his certified people to believe in the bible and no other writings that contradict the bible.

For example, I read things besides the bible. I find good information in other non-fiction writings. However, if I read something that is contrary to the Word of God (found only in the bible), than I will no longer read that writing. When something is questionable, I search the scriptures (God’s bible) for confirmation or condemnation. The bible is my compass from which all other things are measured.

I should clarify and emphasize that I totally respect Dave for having values and sticking with them. My concern was why would he not feel a Mormon is Christian enough. I’ve seen FPU taught in LDS meeting houses. That is my biggest issue. I know having served a 2 year mission that there is a lot of anti-mormon literature out there claiming we are some kind of cult and don’t believe in Christ. We have the nickname “Mormon” because we believe in another testament of Jesus Christ – the Book of Momon. I just wish I could invite Dave to visit lds.org and learn a little more about us. This site is also a good start: http://www.youtube.com/mormonmessages

BTW, I should add the Book of Mormon also has a few nuggets of financial wisdom from God. One of my favorites:

But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

(Jacob 2:18-19)

I’m glad that Jesus did not leave us to wonder about these matters… He has given us His Word that details the accounts of exactly what He would do, and exactly what He did.

Helping the most abominable wretch and helping the sweet old lady across the street and helping everyone in between regardless of anything is EXACTLY why God came to earth as the incarnate Jesus… the Christ… the fulfillment of biblical prophesy!

I am chief of sinners and I weep that I am unable to represent Christ the way He deserves to be represented. He died for me, and He lives for me… and for you all.

He came to this earth to reveal these charitable truths to us, and to teach us how to live… and He did not exclude teaching on this matter of finances, nor did he exclude who He taught to… what a blessing! That said… He did commit to faithful likeminded men to carry His message on intact, and in truth — the 12 disciples. He did not commit the continued ministry of his truths to just anyone, and neither should any of us.

So again… what would Jesus do? Rather, what DID Jesus do?

Jesus taught us that we need to consult Him for wisdom in all matters, even financial matters. He taught us that we need to esteem others higher than ourselves. He taught us that we ought to put the needs of others before our own.

Dave’s goal is to stay focused on teaching the same principles, and so He needs like minded people to help him shoulder that burden. If the teachers are not like minded, then the end result is not the same – I think we can all understand and draw this conclusion.

I’ll say again – isn’t it refreshing to see someone stand for something they believe in… especially in this day & age? I for one absolutely LOVE IT!

Thanks for your great question Steve!

You made made the following comment above,

“When it comes to helping people with debt, I’m curious, what would Jesus do? Would he adopt the same restrictions and limitations as Dave does?”

I am not really sure what you point is here. Do you believe that Dave should allow non-Christian counselors? Wouldn’t this compromise his Christian debt counseling program? Like it or not, his counseling program is a Christian program. Non-Christians are certainly not excluded from getting debt help.

You ask what would Jesus do. I wouldn’t want to presume knowing what he would do. However, I am pretty sure that Jesus would not want non-Christians to be allowed to become pastors and priests of the Church. Christ’s apostles were all Christians.

I agree that it is about brand protection and I understand that. And like you, I am fine with that POV. I just don’t think that should be masked by other things.

I understand the POV that people are making here, I’ve heard them many times before. I’m not asking anyone to change their allegiance to Dave. But I don’t have to think it is fair or right and I’ve expressed that opinion.

Out.

Steve

Dave is, however, excluding non-Evangelicals/Catholic business men and women from using his system as the system and the Evangelical/Catholic faith are entwined. He’s merely protecting his brand and his future constituents. And as a capitalist myself, I don’t find any fault in this and would expect nothing less.

NOTE: I’m not a Ramsey apologist. He does great work in the PF arena, but we differ vastly in investing strategies. I wish he’d reconsider his outlook in this area.